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Ore Changes For Odyssey

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Mara Rinn Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium 3284	Posted - 2013.04.26 20:42:00 - [1] - Quote Hisec miners can kiss their income goodbye, and Spod will return to being the least valuable ore in the game (adding 10k of something worth 0 ISK means you are reducing the value of that ore). Good job, CCP. I though you were past the sledge-hammer-instead-of-a-scalpel approach to rebalancing? Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mara Rinn Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium 3284	Posted - 2013.04.26 20:44:00 - [2] - Quote Kali Omega wrote: Could you link or cut paste the article on this...cant view most of the eve news on work computer. No article yet, this was CCP Seagull's closing comments during the EVE Keynote: basically that you will be able to build and destroy critical infrastructure such as star gates. Expect to hear a lot more about this over the next six months as people get over the rush of Odyssey :) Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mara Rinn Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium 3285	Posted - 2013.04.26 20:52:00 - [3] - Quote Some Rando wrote: This can only be a good thing. Can't run a company with no income. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mara Rinn Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium 3288	Posted - 2013.04.26 21:25:00 - [4] - Quote And then there's replacing grav sites which require exploration, as in time spent with probes out advertising that you're looking for something or someone, with anomalies which only require pressing a button (assuming you don't have the system scanner locked on perma-scan) then selecting warp-to. This isn't just dumbing down the game, this is screwing over miners with ill-concieved poorly thought through changes. Turn up to the Resource Rebalancing table to watch this balding middle aged guy go apoplectic with rage over his rocks being violated. YOU TOUCHED MY ROCKS IN A VERY NOT NICE WAY! Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mara Rinn Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium 3288	Posted - 2013.04.26 21:41:00 - [5] - Quote Prekaz wrote: The part you don't like is actually the very best part of all. Only if you're the AFK cloaker looking for a mining fleet to drop a black ops raiding fleet on top of. This change will reduce the attractiveness of mining in nullsec. Who knows, maybe hisec won't be dead after all. Odyssey will be a great time to get my covert ops alts out to null. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mara Rinn Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium 3288	Posted - 2013.04.26 21:57:00 - [6] - Quote Dave Stark wrote: can you enter a system, scan it, warp to the anom, and tackle/light cyno within 18 seconds? If I'm AFK cloaked in the system, chances are I'm already sitting in the anomaly when the mining fleet arrives. Heck, if I'm flying an Arazu there's not even any need to cyno anyone else in. Just warp scram, deploy drones, have at thee! Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mara Rinn Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium 3288	Posted - 2013.04.26 22:18:00 - [7] - Quote Dave Stark wrote: now just think. off grid boosting is removed. here, you might need some tissues... Pity there's no mention of moving the mining foreman link bonus from the industrial core to the rorqual hull. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mara Rinn Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium 3291	Posted - 2013.04.27 08:07:00 - [8] - Quote Loan--Wolf wrote: you didn't take into account the fact that more mining will be done in wh space to add to the market ? wormholes seem to be the bastard child of eve no one likes to think about :) jk hahaha couldn't resist my on bad seance of humor How much more mining will be done in WH now that finding mining sites requires no effort? Mining used to be relatively safe since you could watch for scan probes and GTFO. Now the first thing you will know about people invading your wormhole is the Arazu decloaking and scramming your mining fleet. This applies for nullsec too: it used to be possible to mine in grav sites even when you had AFK cloakers because you knew that paying attention to D-scan would provide sufficient warning that the AFK cloaker was actually at the keyboard and actively hunting you. Which will have the greater impact: the boosting of nullsec supply due to super-ores, or the constriction of nullsec supply due to nerfing of grav sites? Perhaps I am wrong about super-ores killing hisec mining, and null sec miners will happily mine in dangerous conditions because they are going to make building those supercapitals so much easier with local tritanium and pyerite supplies. There are a lot of people in nullsec right now thinking that the reduction of logistics pain will be a good thing for nullsec. I happen to disagree, simply because disrupting the logistics chain is a means for inflicting pain on your enemies. By removing the requirement for a logistics chain CCP will reduce the number of ways that pain can be inflicted on other entities in nullsec. A better option for increasing the demand for miners in nullsec is to balance ores properly, i.e.: fill in the holes present in the ubiquitous refining spreadsheet, and eliminate mineral compression while reworking refineries. Thus a nullsec entitiy can choose between hauling 40 times as many freighter loads of minerals as they currently do, or encouraging miners to operate in that entity's space. At the same time spodumain and gneiss would become not-worthless, and scordite would be worth less than high end ores. Here are the fixes that would have filled the holes in the refining spreadsheet and led to better value mining-for-profit, all numbers refer to a single refining batch of each respective ore: Pyroxeres: swap 11 Nocxium for 500 Pyerite Omber: add 300 Mexallon Jaspet: swap 8 Zydrine and 259 Tritanium for 300 Isogen Gneiss: add 300 Nocxium Spodumain: swap 700 tritanium for 200 Noxcium & 400 Zydrine Adding tritanium and pyerite to the high-ends to produce super-ores means that mining operations in nullsec are forced to deal with large quantities of tritanium and pyerite, regardless of their purpose in mining. Are nullsec miners mining for supply or profit? Since nullsec miners are targeting specific hidden belts and complaining about Spodzilla, I suspect the answer is that they are mining for profit (i.e.: ISK/hr). Thus adding low end minerals will be hampering profitable mining simply due to the need to deal with surplus low end minerals. Removing Nocxium from low end ores means the value of Nocxium will increase, simply because you don't have 80% of the miners in the game gathering trace quantities of Nocxium in the "safety" of hisec. Adding more high end minerals to the high end ores means that nullsec miners have the choice to mine for ISK, then pay ISK to import the less valuable minerals, thus making best use of their time. Making best use of their time by mining for ISK also means nullsec miners are exposed to danger for less time. Moving all existing system belts to anomalies would be a good idea simply because it removes the ability to bookmark the dense veldspar rocks. Moving hidden belts to anomalies, which everyone will see automatically when they jump into a system, is a mistake. Nullsec miners previously had the protection of being in grav sites which need to be probed down. Paying attention to d-scan was their way of staying alive. Now they have no chance of seeing the bad guy coming. Another buff to hidden belts would be to automatically despawn them if they are touched and then abandoned. That is, mine some stuff out of the belt to set a "violated" flag, and have the site despawn if it is violated and there are no pilots in the pocket. What hampers nullsec industry right now is the lack of effective manufacturing capacity and the lack of effective refining capacity. Resolving these two issues will do far more to increase the demand for miners in nullsec than "super veldspar" or "super scordite". Addressing the need for effective mining and refining capacity by encouraging nullsec denizens to deploy POSes will also address the "farms and fields" design goal, as well as addressing the "bottom up economy" design goal. A "simple" change to POS refineries would be to reduce the CPU requirement (to about 1/2 of current values), reduce the cycle time from 3 hours to 1 hour, and remove the ridiculous 75% cap on efficiency. A better change to POS refineries is to convert them to activity lines. Thus a single POS refinery might have 6 refining lines each capable of handling 20,000m3 of stuff per hour, with efficiency affected by the skill of the character starting a job. I would like to see resource rebalancing provide incentive for more miners to move to lowsec and nullsec, rather than allowing the existing lowsec and nullsec miners to make more from the work they're already doing. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mara Rinn Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium 3291	Posted - 2013.04.27 08:32:00 - [9] - Quote Loan--Wolf wrote: if there are so many board pvpers in low why kill helpless defenseless miners why not kill others just asking before i get spamed to hell and back Because they are bored PvPers looking for stuff to shoot. They prefer stuff that won't shoot back, or at least stuff that won't blow them up before they've blown up the stuff. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mara Rinn Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium 3291	Posted - 2013.04.27 08:36:00 - [10] - Quote Malcanis wrote: There's no global slot shortage - in fact there's a global oversupply, since most hi-sec slots are left unused. I agree. That issue can be addressed without adding super-ores to null and w-space, for example by reducing the abundance of highsec slots (and hisec stations: seriously, who needs 20 stations in one system?) and making player-built facilities more efficient than NPC provided ones. It is much easier for players to address the surfeit of player-built infrastructure than NPC-built infrastructure. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players

Mara Rinn Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium 3291	Posted - 2013.04.27 08:46:00 - [11] - Quote Malcanis wrote: (1) Due to the massive spodroids, the average value of the ore in a large site is horribly low, well under that of Scordite. They pay less than mining hi-sec ores in total, and that total figure is important because you have to clear the a site to get it to respawn. To fix this you need to make spod worth more, by adding something. The problem is so bad that those "for profit" miners are actually better off staying in hi-sec and mining the belts there than they were clearing sites. Exactly, add something to spod to make it valuable, such as filling the nocxium hole in the spod refining out put. No need to pile in loads of trit which is just going to be dumped on a local market. Malcanis wrote: (2) The large sites are hideously undersupplied with low-end minerals, by a factor of something insane, about 200:1 or something ridiculous like that (Dave Stark, help me out here! shines the StarkSignalGäó). That lack of local supply of low-ends has been one of the major chokes on enabling local 0.0 industry: to build anything in 0.0, you have to import a vast bulk of trit, pyer, and often mex too. Providing bucket loads of low-ends as a side effect of mining-for-profit will not address the issue of local supply of low-ends. To get low ends to manufacturing facilities, the current method is mineral compression in high sec, jump freighter the stuff down to a refinery in the same system as the manufacturing is going to take place, refine, haul a short distance, manufacture. Malcanis wrote: Since it's massively easier to move the high ends to where the low ends are (and then you have all the other advantages of hi-sec industry, but let's not go into that now), this acts as a big logistical disincentive to build anything in 0.0 that can be built in hi-sec. This same constraint applies to bulk-but-not-huge supplies of trit and pyerite mined "locally". The only way that locally mined trit is going to be competitive with hisec mined, mineral compressed trit is if mineral compression is removed. Would you prefer to haul 40:1 compressed trit in one jump freighter, three jumps from hisec, or 40 freighter loads of tritanium two jumps each way in nullsec? I do understand the logistics of nullsec manufacturing. I fear that you are viewing the situation through a rose-tinted monocle. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mara Rinn Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium 3291	Posted - 2013.04.27 08:51:00 - [12] - Quote Malcanis wrote: (2) The large sites are hideously undersupplied with low-end minerals That can be addressed by introducing large site with large veldspar, scordite etc asteroids, and having sites despawn when all ships leave grid after any rock has been popped. This would provide a really useful metric too: what is the ratio of high/med/low end sites spawned versus exhausted? I would expect miners to go out of their way to despawn low end sites to encourage more high end sites. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mara Rinn Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium 3291	Posted - 2013.04.27 08:59:00 - [13] - Quote James Amril-Kesh wrote: Loan--Wolf wrote: if i understood the blog grave are being removed end of storie that mean in whs to Gravimetric cosmic signatures are being replaced by anomalies, yes. Which simply means you don't have to use probes to find them. GÇª or the juicy targets mining them. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mara Rinn Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium 3291	Posted - 2013.04.27 09:00:00 - [14] - Quote Dave Stark wrote: Mara Rinn wrote: I would expect miners to go out of their way to despawn low end sites to encourage more high end sites. that's not how it works. when you exhaust a site, an identical one spawns. Well there you go, learn a new thing every day :) Why do people ignore the XL/giant sites? Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mara Rinn Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium 3291	Posted - 2013.04.27 13:51:00 - [15] - Quote Dave Stark wrote: lower isk/m3 due to higher concentration of bad ores like gneiss/spod. (and those ores can't be skipped, unless you like waiting 4 days for it to respawn) Which is what I base my reasoning on, when suggsting that Gneiss and Spod be rebalanced by adding high ends rather than low ends. Tritanium and Pyerite are far worse ISK/m3 than Nocxium and Zydrine. Thus while mineral compression exists, hauling of bulky refined minerals in null sec is going to be competing with jump freighter loads of 40:1 compressed minerals from Jita. One freighter load from Jita, or forty loads from two systems over? I wouldn't want to be the poor ******* spending an entire evening schlepping a freighter around null. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mara Rinn Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium 3292	Posted - 2013.04.27 15:12:00 - [16] - Quote Reaver Glitterstim wrote: Mara Rinn wrote: Pyroxeres: swap 11 Nocxium for 500 Pyerite Omber: add 300 Mexallon Jaspet: swap 8 Zydrine and 259 Tritanium for 300 Isogen I agree with this. But maybe leave a tiny bit of Nocxium in the Pyroxeres, else you make a lot of people mad. I would prefer hisec people to be mad and lowsec/w-space/nullsec people to be rich. There is already Hedbergite, Hemorphite and Jaspet in hisec through grav sites. At least, assuming CCP don't just go wholesale removing grav sites altogether. Leaving any nocxium in pyroxeres devalues nocxium throughout the economy. My view of the economical progression is that hisec is the resource poor zone, with everywhere else being resource rich. After all, being empire space all the mining corporations have supposedly stripped the place clean. If you want to make the big bucks, head to lowsec, w-space and nullsec where there are still valuable resources to exploit. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mara Rinn Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium 3292	Posted - 2013.04.27 15:13:00 - [17] - Quote Regnag Leppod wrote: Jaspet has quite a bit of Nocx compared to Pyrox, but people aren't exactly flocking to low-sec to mine Jaspet, even with the added bonus of the zydrine. This is because of the balance of ores in Jaspet making it an unattractive ore. Even in Hedbergite/Hemorphite/Jaspet sites in hisec, people will leave the Jaspet behind because it's worth less than Veldspar/Scordite. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players

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